| Welcome to the PGRF gaming community! Everyone here is very friendly, so don't hesitate to say hi and engage in some video game discussion with all of us! From retro to modern, there's no discrimination here. If you have any questions, feel free to ask the moderators and administrators! Have fun. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free! Join our community! |
- Pages:
- 1
- 2
| FF7 Remake update. | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 1 2010, 09:46 PM (1,398 Views) | |
| hooflung128 | Jun 3 2010, 11:42 PM Post #26 |
Level 7
  ![]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/PDorr3/forum/endingpip.png)
|
Final Fantasy 8 and 9 are arguably better anyway aren't they? 10 is pretty nice so far. |
Youtube page | My HeatWare rating.  | |
 |
 
|
| Golden_Age_Gamer | Jun 3 2010, 11:44 PM Post #27 |
Level 5
|
Why remake such beauty?? Well, not the graphics though. FF7 is so good you wanna sex it up and let it sleep with you. |
| |
|
|
|
| Richard | Jun 4 2010, 01:42 AM Post #28 |
Link
|
Haven't played 9 yet so I can't comment on that and 8 is not arguably better . Do not compare a masterpiece to that trash of a game. |
 In a realm beyond sight. The sky shines gold,not blue. There,the triforce's might Make mortal dreams come true. PSN: MicrosoftSnake XBL: xCKx Snake YouTube Gaming Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/TriforceRich | |
|
|
|
| BONEYARDS1989 | Jun 4 2010, 04:32 AM Post #29 |
Level 3
|
I know Just how competent the Unreal Engine is dude, I'm studying games design at Bolton University, I don't think it works well with an RPG on a console, it was sluggish, slow, texture pop in was truely awful, it's issues like that, that make Last Remnant unplayable to me. I don't think they would go back to the Unreal Engine dude, it's not tuned to how they program and the devs were ill trained on how to use it. |
| |
|
|
|
| hooflung128 | Jun 4 2010, 06:32 AM Post #30 |
|
Level 7
|
Texture pop is evident in many early UE3 games on all platforms save for the PC. It is not a indicative of platform limitations, but of lack of precise optimizations. For instance, UE3 is built for DX9, DX10 and OpenGL. You can write a game very fast with c++, unreal script and <insert your favorite 3d art asset manipulation editor>. It will compile on any platform if the toolchain is setup. It will play with minimal problems on a PC. But you have to start patching the toolchains for specific platforms to move C and C++ to at the very least the platform's assembly language. That isn't even bare metal programming which some things might need. Texture pop-in exists because within the day-and-date of a game didn't allow for more tweaking. The lawsuit of Epic by Silicon Knights put allegations that Epic was hoarding the latest updates of the Unreal Engine to provide better ways of implementing features on the consoles just for Gears of War. They accused Epic that by hoarding it they were positioning Gears of War to have an unfair competitive edge over Too Human and other license holders putting out games. That is why the initial Too Human failed at E3 and why its day-and-date release it was not their vision because they rewrote the Unreal 3 engine themselves so much it could barely be called Unreal 3. They also accused them of not having the PS3 compilers ready and in good shape. During early litigation Epic released the Gears of War Code to all licensees in a move of good faith. Funny how games using Unreal 3 Started moving at a faster pace to market. Unreal 3 is in constant development and games that use it today are not using the same code base as the original games. Since SK's lawsuite, Epic has been put in a position it has to adhere to keeping its licensees up to date. You only have to look at Too Human to realize what can happen to a game that spends too much time building an engine and not putting the game mechanics and art assets first. Square Enix has publicly said the PS3 is hard to work with. Well this is because their tools are written for the PC first, then the toolchains are patched. However, the U3 engine is compiling pretty good on the PS3 now and OpenGL ES is one of the best documented API's in the world. So it must be the patching of toolchains to achieve the speed needed with either new C/C++ code specific to the Cell and Nvidia chip or it could be assembly or bare-metal programming patches. This is the nature of the beast. This is why the PS3 has taken a lot of time to offer something different than the 360. Hell even Naughty Dog is shipping its Toolkit and toolchains they developed in house to first tier Playstation 3 developers who own a licensed development kit. Because the PS1 is such an old game you would have to take it's original code base and patch the living piss out of it just to compile on other platforms. That would probably take 10-15 years to do if you want it to be enhanced. Don't think so? Where is Gran Tourismo 5? And that game started from scratch. That is why it requires a new engine to work. It is the fastest option and you'd be able to re-implement the art assets if you went with the pre-rendered backgrounds and just built new 3D models for everything else and try to reuse as much primitives as possibly. |
|
Youtube page | My HeatWare rating. | |
|
|
|
| hooflung128 | Jun 4 2010, 06:46 AM Post #31 |
|
Level 7
|
It was Hiroshi Takai that said it wasn't easy to develop for the PS3. This was in contenxt of putting The Last Remnant PS3 port back in play. He said the 360 was easier to work with. This would support what I have been saying. They don't have many PS3 optimizations in their development toolchain [edit: for UE3]. It is a matter of making your target platform in the compiler to PS3, so obviously what he is talking about is platform specific code to make it [edit: UE3] work as intended. I find this rather heavy handed. They already paid for the license and any work they do on the compiler can carry over to new IP. Seems to me they want to focus more on keeping the Crystal Tools toolchain in order for PS3 and not have to maintain patches to two engines. Understandable... but disappointing. They are swimming in money, hire some more people. Edited by hooflung128, Jun 4 2010, 06:56 AM.
|
|
Youtube page | My HeatWare rating. | |
|
|
|
| eSkilliam | Jun 4 2010, 07:04 AM Post #32 |
Gamer. Graphic Designer. Geek.
|
... (I was gonna post something but decided not to)
Edited by eSkilliam, Jun 4 2010, 07:08 AM.
|
|
eSkilliam on Steam - eSkilliam on Wii U - CetiAlphaVI on PS4 eSkilliamgaming on Youtube - eSkilliam on Twitch - eSkilliam on Twitter | |
|
|
|
| hooflung128 | Jun 4 2010, 07:43 AM Post #33 |
|
Level 7
|
I don't think you understand how a programming environment works man, especially for game programming. You have a toolkit provided by the game manufacturer but you rarely program in their environment. They give compilers you can link to any IDE that exists on the platform. So if Sony provides a Windows based PS3 compiler you can use Visual C++, Borland C++, Eclipse or any other. This is how it has worked for years. All work is done on a PC, even on the Genesis and NES. Many times you will find companies have developed their own Integrated Development Environment so they can manage multiple compilers for many different platform targets. Many indy studios will use Visual Studio and write plugins for it to manage compilers. Then you start programming. That is it. When your game is done you compile it and then you send it to the Devkit unit. If the game does not feel right in a certain area you debug it and try to track down imperfections that may be slowing it down. When you figure out what it is then you are tasked with a decision. What you need to refactor or if it is something platform specific that is limiting game speed. If it is a platform problem you can patch the compiler in its native language, usually C/C++ using direct code overriding or by using C++ Macros to transform a call from a specific call to the compiler to a custom call. That new call can be C++, Assembly or baremetal. If port a program to another platform your environment has to have a platform compiler. If you took Final Fantasy 7's code and tried to compile it directly I guarentee you it would fail. Even if the C did compile you'd probably have a lot of issues. Many things in a game are dependent on frequency crystals for timing, random number generations and input polling. Even if the game compiled, you'd have so many anomalies that it would be worthless. You'd have to write a pre-processor macro to change it. Which means that you'd have to emulate the original hardware. Now, going back to what we were talking about compilers. Because the PS3 is OpenGL and the Xbox 360 is Direct X you have more to deal with than the original consoles. And when you re-implement an older game on a new platform you also have to take what I am about to tell you into account. You will have to have a different render path dependant on which graphics API you use. If you develop for the 360 first, you write all your code path for DX9 and a few DX10 features. So your graphics calls will tap into that. When you want to port it to the PS3 you need to switch those calls out with OpenGL ES calls. This is known as the render pathing. The game engine is programmed in such a way that it will move from one API to another when you target a specific platform. DX9 and OpenGL ES have feature parity. What gets in the way is hardware limitations usually due to how memory is distributed. The Xbox shares its 512mb between the CPU and GPU and the PS3 doesn't, it has 256 each. So again, are friend the pre-processor macro's come into play. But usually this time you are dealing with assembly or bare-metal because you need direct access to the hardware to physically manage things. This is how programming works. You cannot just flip a switch and compile C and expect it to work. Most ports are shoddy because the tools they were made in were not mature. For older games being ported to hardware, you need to emulate many physical pieces of hardware. Just because the PS3 runs like a demon compared to the PS1 doesn't mean anything except you have headroom to emulate. The PS1 games run on the PS3 and PSP in a 1:1 emulation mode. The PS3 gives the games a software PlayStation to run in. The port runs the same exact code it did on the PS1, just like playstation can run on PC emulators. What you are talking about is a semi-re-implementation which is far more work than you realize. Because you want to get enhanced results you have to make changes to the game engine itself. You have to basically allow it to be exposed to the PlayStation 3 API, which essentially means patching the original Final Fantasy 7 code to path to OpenGL ES. You've essentially created a new piece of Hardware, just in software. Because the old code will still expect PS1 specific timings, pollings and whatnot that were physically bound to the machine. But you have to emulate them. But not wholehog, because you want MORE from the graphics engine from exposure to the PS3 APIs. It is just not feasable. Possible... absolutely. Worth the effort, I think not. |
|
Youtube page | My HeatWare rating. | |
|
|
|
| hooflung128 | Jun 4 2010, 07:44 AM Post #34 |
|
Level 7
|
I saw it  and replied to it. No worries man, stimulating discussing is good.
|
|
Youtube page | My HeatWare rating. | |
|
|
|
| eSkilliam | Jun 4 2010, 12:56 PM Post #35 |
|
Gamer. Graphic Designer. Geek.
|
Sooo... The emulation is already there to run the original ISO's... So they upgrade the graphics, recompile on the PS1 even though it wouldn't run on that system anymore, and run using the same ISO emulators they are running the PSN downloads with. Put that all in one package and it's done. (and only a matter of swapping out a touch of code, some graphics and recompiling) A bit of tweaking and it's ready to go... I'm just saying I'm 100% sure that there is a way to use a majority of the already written code to update the graphics on FF7 and put it on a new system fairly easily and quickly... 
Edited by eSkilliam, Jun 4 2010, 12:57 PM.
|
|
eSkilliam on Steam - eSkilliam on Wii U - CetiAlphaVI on PS4 eSkilliamgaming on Youtube - eSkilliam on Twitch - eSkilliam on Twitter | |
|
|
|
| hooflung128 | Jun 5 2010, 03:35 AM Post #36 |
|
Level 7
|
The one thing you could do in that case is try to backport techniques they used in Final Fantasy 8, 9 or any Square Enix PS1 game or create a compaitble technique from scratch back into the original engine and hope it produced better results than the initial attempt. For instance, if they had a better texture compression algorith in Final Fantasy 8 that gave the same exact picture but saved memory that could free up enough memory scale the 3d objects up in size or add more polygons to the model, or to add more objects in a scene. What you can't expect is anything that is not to be produced on a physical machine. The PS3's PS1 emulator already applies a variety of filters to the rendered scene to make it crisp on a HDTV. In short, if the PS1 can't do it, the PS3 cannot do it without rewriting the emulator... not going to happen... or not without moving it to a new PS3 enabled engine. The latter is the most reasonable solution. Edited by hooflung128, Jun 5 2010, 03:36 AM.
|
|
Youtube page | My HeatWare rating. | |
|
|
|
| transparencypro | Jun 7 2010, 08:18 AM Post #37 |
The Irregular Maverick Hunter
|
I'm just wondering why haven't we got a port of before crisis, iPhone and others are popular here I say why not |
"No rubes this is pokemon snap you can't play it on playstation." a kid from the movie the glass house This can be played on Playstation! My Youtube | |
|
|
|
| Kharnivore2099 | Jun 7 2010, 11:42 AM Post #38 |
Retroverdose
|
Bit harsh on FF8 isn't it? Im playing it just now, just onto disc 2. I dont relate to the characters as much but i actually prefer the focus mainly being on refining items and collecting/drawing magic, its something different. Ended up getting Curagas n stuff before reaching timber because of all the card modding and item refining we did. FF7 IS better but FF8 definetly isnt a piece of trash. |
 Twitch Channel Youtube Channel | |
|
|
|
| PeteDorr | Jun 7 2010, 05:47 PM Post #39 |
I Like Games.
|
Heck, at this rate I would be happy with just a slight graphical remake with maybe some added content in terms of mini games or something. Just make it like any other HD remake these days, improve the blocky polygonal characters, maybe rework the pre-rendered backgrounds, make summons more flashy, etc. We may not be getting a reworked game but its SOMETHING. |
| |
|
|
|
| SuperTrainStationH | Jun 7 2010, 07:46 PM Post #40 |
East Unova Resident
|
FF7 got stuck in that odd phase were if it were a Super NES game, it would be fine as it is and "classic" in its sprite based form, but it came so early in the 3-D age that it's graphic style actually aged horribly despite the graphics being more "modern". I personally wouldn't mind if they delayed a "main" entry in the FF series to remake seven. |
| |
|
|
|
| Direngrey911 | Jun 9 2010, 07:54 PM Post #41 |
Tanzbefehl!
|
amen to that. I would appreciate if they didn't try to pump out 3 horrible FF's a year |
|
+ "Mit den Mauern brachen die Herzen, im Bombenhagel, in der Stadt. Hab dich verloren in diesen Tagen und jede Stunde an dich gedacht! " +  + | |
|
|
|
| Andsy | Jun 10 2010, 07:23 AM Post #42 |
Hurf n' Durf Inc.
|
SuperTrainStation speaks the truth, I looks back at 2D games and can't see anything wrong with them, 8 bit style games are insanely endearing to me due to the pixel art. Been looking at breath of Fire 4, and Suikoden 2 alot recently, and they stand up to the test of time just because they're simple. Now, Final Fantasy 7... Not so much. I popped it into my PS3, had the great mispleasure of seeing it populate the entirity of my 50" screen. It was hooooorrible. Caught in the early stages of 3D, a real grey area. I'm actually a fan of the idea of 'reduxing' older hits with new skins. God of War... and hopefully soon Ico + SotC, I'd really like to see more classics given this treatment. Ultimately, theres a good modding scene out there for the PC version of FF7. Admittably, it's complicated as hell, and not too smooth, but they've given it HD skins, and made it look so much better. So why can't the OG studio? I'd much prefer they go down that route, than to redo it from the ground up. I really dislike where the JRPG scene is at the moment, and I can't help but fear that if they cut it down to grassroots, and rebuild it... They're splice in too much generic JRPG crap, and it'll loose what made it so memorable in the first place. Oh, and tentacles. |
|
VSigma100: If I've learned anything on here it's that Andsy is a crazy bastard. LOL. | |
|
|
|
| Pirotess | Jun 10 2010, 01:24 PM Post #43 |
New User
|
I like it how it is, old, pixelated and so shall it be, thank you! <3 I do play this game every year... |
|
Oi äm from germany, vorgiw mai bäd ingrish, sänk ju wäry match! :3 Wii 4127 4628 1325 7442 / 360 Piro83 / PS3 piro83 | |
|
|
|
| LadySnow | Jun 12 2010, 03:17 PM Post #44 |
New User
|
Personally, I'd much rather see a remake of Final Fantasy IX. I think Final Fantasy VII is way overated, I'm not saying it's a bad game, I enjoyed it, I just don't think it's worth the massive praise it gets. IX is my favourite it in the series, although, I wouldn't mind seeing a remake of VI also. Edited by LadySnow, Jun 12 2010, 03:18 PM.
|
| |
|
|
|
| BONEYARDS1989 | Jun 17 2010, 11:12 AM Post #45 |
|
Level 3
|
You speak sense, FFIX is my fav in the series and my fav game ever, I wouldn't want a remake though, it would spoil my memories of the game. It's aged well and I think the graphics add to its charm personally. I think that FFVI is the most deserving of the lot for a console remake though, I love the sprites but a HD remake would be amazing with properly orchestrated music. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
 |
|
| « Previous Topic · General Gaming · Next Topic » |
- Pages:
- 1
- 2
11:40 AM Jul 13