Why does the US hate socialism so much?

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Why does the US hate socialism so much?
Tweet Topic Started: Jan 31 2012, 03:24 PM (2,494 Views)
OceanKirbydee	Feb 4 2012, 02:02 PM Post #26
A ghost in the machine Posts: 297 Group: Founding Members Member #253 Joined: Feb 7, 2009	I think part of the reason is a lot of my fellow americans mistake socialism for communism. Because most of our country is lazy as freak nobody bothers to check. Another reason is it is part of American values to have to work for what you own. As such many of us feel its unfair that say a homeless person who drinks booze all day should get the same health benefits as a hard working man or woman in the middle class...
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turbogamer2point0	Feb 4 2012, 02:18 PM Post #27
Level 9001 Posts: 243 Group: Members Member #4,595 Joined: Dec 31, 2011	Soawsum Feb 4 2012, 02:02 PM As such many of us feel its unfair that say a homeless person who drinks booze all day should get the same health benefits as a hard working man or woman in the middle class... Second this.
	Don't wait for answers, Just take your chances, Don't ask me why -Billy Joel


lol_pc	Feb 5 2012, 09:21 AM Post #28
\m/ (>_<) \m/ Posts: 754 Group: Members Member #583 Joined: Apr 16, 2009	Soawsum Feb 4 2012, 02:02 PM I think part of the reason is a lot of my fellow americans mistake socialism for communism. Because most of our country is lazy as freak nobody bothers to check. Another reason is it is part of American values to have to work for what you own. As such many of us feel its unfair that say a homeless person who drinks booze all day should get the same health benefits as a hard working man or woman in the middle class... So it's not hard work to have a nation run all these social programs? It requires that the majority pays very high taxes, we still have to work hard to pay those taxes. You also have to take into consideration that a homeless man in that situation, has probably had something happen to him in his life that put him there, maybe he needs help to get out of it and become a functioning part of society, if not financial help, then psychological help. Of course it's different if he's out there by choice. But I doubt many homeless people exist by choice. Should we just abandon the ones who live in the bowels of society? Wouldn't it be more moral to help them? And if not from a morality standpoint, then from a financial standpoint, you'll gain more profit from helping a someone get back on their feet, than leave them be. Maybe i'm too much of an idealist, but I just feel it's our duty as fellow human beings to lend a helping hand. Socialist programs doesn't remove this problem, but it at least offers them a way out of that life.
	Fin moron do Taazokaan fen kod zeim ul


Soulless	Feb 5 2012, 09:47 AM Post #29
I killed Abeloth. Posts: 450 Group: Members Member #4,243 Joined: Sep 6, 2011	I fancy myself a bit of an idealist as well. But you're fooling yourself if you think that many of the homeless are where they are because of circumstances beyond their control. Many drank or drugged themselves there. Many, given the opportunity, would continue to wear those chains of slavery that they themselves put there. I agree that people should help others, just start with those that help themselves. Start with the families struggling to make ends meet and make the lives of their children better. Help those who work, who want an education, that understand the meaning of honesty and aren't trying to work the system. Sounds easy right? If only ...
	Death is certain, life is not. We have taken the noise of gunpowder as our rhythm and the sound of machine guns as our melody.


SCScanlan	Feb 5 2012, 11:10 AM Post #30
Level 5 Posts: 731 Group: Members Member #3,478 Joined: Feb 24, 2011	Soulless Feb 5 2012, 09:47 AM I fancy myself a bit of an idealist as well. But you're fooling yourself if you think that many of the homeless are where they are because of circumstances beyond their control. Two years ago there was a homeless guy standing by the road in our little town. My buddy asked about him in a local fast food restaurant (the Taco Bell I believe) and they said they actually offered the guy a job and he turned them down. You're right, everybody isn't a sad story, some people are just lazy. Also, lol_pc, I really want to know if you knew as a foreigner about the US's social programs. It's interesting to me that a lot of people gloss over what our country has in place for the less fortunate. Think about it, we spend about five times your country's GDP on social programs alone... that's a pretty big deal. Edited by SCScanlan, Feb 5 2012, 11:12 AM.



lol_pc	Feb 5 2012, 01:01 PM Post #31
\m/ (>_<) \m/ Posts: 754 Group: Members Member #583 Joined: Apr 16, 2009	SCScanlan Feb 5 2012, 11:10 AM Soulless Feb 5 2012, 09:47 AM I fancy myself a bit of an idealist as well. But you're fooling yourself if you think that many of the homeless are where they are because of circumstances beyond their control. Two years ago there was a homeless guy standing by the road in our little town. My buddy asked about him in a local fast food restaurant (the Taco Bell I believe) and they said they actually offered the guy a job and he turned them down. You're right, everybody isn't a sad story, some people are just lazy. Also, lol_pc, I really want to know if you knew as a foreigner about the US's social programs. It's interesting to me that a lot of people gloss over what our country has in place for the less fortunate. Think about it, we spend about five times your country's GDP on social programs alone... that's a pretty big deal. If there's so much spendage on social programs, then explain to me what happens if you're uninsured and require treatment or medicine? I seem to recall a Michael Moore documentary about some 9/11 rescuers who had encountered serious health problems after that day, they were denied healthcare or they couldn't afford medicine in their own country, they needed to go to CUBA, one of the countries most hated by US government (At least in the past), in Cuba they recieved medical treatment for free. And I saw the documentary Waiting for "Superman", I was amazed that hard working and intelligent school children were left behind because their parents couldn't afford to give them a proper education. I don't know if those documentaries were skewed or not, but they definetly painted a clear picture. But besides the documentaries, I have a good friend from the US, and he told me that if you didn't have health insurance, you were pretty screwed should something happen to you. And again, i'm not trying to offend any americans, you might not be that keen on socialist programs, but you are a still a close ally to EU countries Edited by lol_pc, Feb 5 2012, 01:03 PM.
	Fin moron do Taazokaan fen kod zeim ul


Soulless	Feb 5 2012, 02:50 PM Post #32
I killed Abeloth. Posts: 450 Group: Members Member #4,243 Joined: Sep 6, 2011	I'm not offended at all man. And as someone who went YEARS without insurance, financially, yes you are screwed. You aren't necessarily denied treatment, you just spend the next 10 years of your life paying it off. Also, as a result of not being insured, I'm now dealing with many problems that wouldn't be as bad had I gotten them treated then instead of now when I can afford it. Also, basing anything on documentaries isn't the best idea, especially ones by Michael Moore. They are full of interesting "facts" that are skewed in a way that they lose all meaning. Many documentaries get their funding from the same groups portrayed in the film, who want to build up certain things that they want focused on and to minimize those they don't.
	Death is certain, life is not. We have taken the noise of gunpowder as our rhythm and the sound of machine guns as our melody.


SCScanlan	Feb 6 2012, 02:49 AM Post #33
Level 5 Posts: 731 Group: Members Member #3,478 Joined: Feb 24, 2011	lol_pc Feb 5 2012, 01:01 PM If there's so much spendage on social programs, then explain to me what happens if you're uninsured and require treatment or medicine? I seem to recall a Michael Moore documentary about some 9/11 rescuers who had encountered serious health problems after that day, they were denied healthcare or they couldn't afford medicine in their own country, they needed to go to CUBA, one of the countries most hated by US government (At least in the past), in Cuba they recieved medical treatment for free. And I saw the documentary Waiting for "Superman", I was amazed that hard working and intelligent school children were left behind because their parents couldn't afford to give them a proper education. I don't know if those documentaries were skewed or not, but they definetly painted a clear picture. But besides the documentaries, I have a good friend from the US, and he told me that if you didn't have health insurance, you were pretty screwed should something happen to you. And again, i'm not trying to offend any americans, you might not be that keen on socialist programs, but you are a still a close ally to EU countries Because there are SOOOO many people who need help because they don't do for themselves. First of all, go look up Michael Moore's track records with facts and you'll see it's very poor, I live pretty close to the town he's from (my wife goes to school there) and even they don't dig him. You can't get your news from a movie made to make money. You've got a guy spouting anti-capitalist rhetoric while using the system to make his fat ass rich! Plus, you're not screwed without health insurance, they HAVE to treat you and you can't be jailed for a debt by law so while it may hurt your credit or cost you out of pocket you aren't completely screwed over (but like Soulless said it does create a debt and can ruin your credit if you have to go into bankruptcy). Seriously man, there's a lot of facts passed around by a lot of people and very few if any are non-biased. We're keen on socialist programs (I mean, I can't get any clearer than showing you how much we spend on them) but we're not all down with half our paycheck taken away to support other people. I know I'm not. Edited by SCScanlan, Feb 6 2012, 02:50 AM.



Soulless	Feb 6 2012, 03:05 AM Post #34
I killed Abeloth. Posts: 450 Group: Members Member #4,243 Joined: Sep 6, 2011	Exactly. I'm not for lost causes, bridges to nowhere, and just blindly throwing money at our problems. Like Scanlan said, it's so hard to find facts that aren't biased or someone to report them without some sort of crappy party agenda. Our media is definitely to blame for that and should be ashamed of themselves, with this "rhetoric arms race" they seem to be having.
	Death is certain, life is not. We have taken the noise of gunpowder as our rhythm and the sound of machine guns as our melody.


Scruffy	Feb 6 2012, 06:06 PM Post #35
Level 2 Posts: 92 Group: Members Member #3,509 Joined: Mar 1, 2011	Soulless Feb 5 2012, 09:47 AM I fancy myself a bit of an idealist as well. But you're fooling yourself if you think that many of the homeless are where they are because of circumstances beyond their control. Many drank or drugged themselves there. Many, given the opportunity, would continue to wear those chains of slavery that they themselves put there. The drink and Drugs that many homeless people go through normally are symptoms of the initial problem that lead people their, its all to easy when you have issues such as depression, Post traumatic stress issues for people to take up drink and drugs to alleviate pain and suffer and this then leads to a vicious downward cycle causing them to become homeless. for a lot of those people it is not as simple as just stopping overnight but due to a myriad of issues, this is why their needs to be a widespread of programs to help people of course these programs will not help 100% of people as some will be in denial of their problems etc however in time it will work. As for socialism in the US as an outsider looking in it seems that some of the right wing media have used terms like socialism / liberal as an insult and over times it has developed negative reputation about it where as the idea of being a conservative hasn't developed any type of reputation . The last time i think the us had someone close to a socialist as president was FDR who wanted universal health care but was stopped by doctors lobbying against it but this was a symptom of the time when many countries exiting depression where looking a Keynesian ( socialist views) to try and help their countries



CarsAndGames	Feb 6 2012, 07:08 PM Post #36
Level 4 Posts: 456 Group: Members Member #4,712 Joined: Jan 28, 2012	Scruffy Feb 6 2012, 06:06 PM The drink and Drugs that many homeless people go through normally are symptoms of the initial problem that lead people their, its all to easy when you have issues such as depression, Post traumatic stress issues for people to take up drink and drugs to alleviate pain and suffer and this then leads to a vicious downward cycle causing them to become homeless. I did it because it was fun....lol



max330	Feb 6 2012, 10:15 PM Post #37
Level 3 Posts: 242 Group: Members Member #2,509 Joined: Aug 8, 2010	Whoa what a thread. What you see in the US news media and--what you hear as "debate" by our politicians--doesn't represent normal citizens in my opinion. Their goal is to privatize all aspects of life, remove what little social safety net that is left, and eventually that idea will spread to western Europe and Canada as well.



Soulless	Feb 7 2012, 08:06 AM Post #38
I killed Abeloth. Posts: 450 Group: Members Member #4,243 Joined: Sep 6, 2011	Agreed. Privatizing the last of the social programs will eventually lead to them becoming expensive or nonexistent. And Europe's current financial crisis will help shape what the US does because we are tied at the hip. The right wing media has also led to the demonizing of certain words because they use them out of context. I also agree that drinking and drugs can be symptoms of depression and PTSD. I know because I have struggled with my own demons in this regard. However, in order to beat the problem (and not just the symptoms) you have to want to do it. And that was my point in my previous post. Many don't want to or aren't ready to shed those problems because they have become habitual and almost familial. So, that's why I said it's a waste sometimes, because you are essentially spending money on lost causes (or people that don't want to change and would actually reject that change if it were offered). However, I'm not saying that help should stop being offered or that there isn't any point. TBH, I'm not exactly sure of what should be done as I don't believe in our leadership, with very few exceptions. Centrists are our only hope and there aren't many of us left.
	Death is certain, life is not. We have taken the noise of gunpowder as our rhythm and the sound of machine guns as our melody.


max330	Feb 7 2012, 11:10 PM Post #39
Level 3 Posts: 242 Group: Members Member #2,509 Joined: Aug 8, 2010	What sucks about this whole finacial crisis, which started with an unregulated financial sector both in the US and Europe, is that the bail-out was financed by the taxpayer here in the US. Meanwhile, European citzens are being hit with a wave of austerity measures to cope with this whole mess that was not even their fault.



SCScanlan	Feb 8 2012, 11:03 AM Post #40
Level 5 Posts: 731 Group: Members Member #3,478 Joined: Feb 24, 2011	max330 Feb 7 2012, 11:10 PM What sucks about this whole finacial crisis, which started with an unregulated financial sector both in the US and Europe, is that the bail-out was financed by the taxpayer here in the US. Meanwhile, European citzens are being hit with a wave of austerity measures to cope with this whole mess that was not even their fault. Yep, if that money was given to the taxpayers with stipulations that they had to pay their mortgage first, then pay off any credit card debt they had, and THEN put the rest back into the economy through purchases (think more vouchers than REAL cash) then the banks wouldn't have lost their ass, the housing industry would have been strong, and the auto industry could have held tough. The real problem was caused from strong-arming banks into providing low income loans in the first place but that's another discussion.



Mamonuth	Feb 8 2012, 03:29 PM Post #41
Level 5 Posts: 612 Group: Members Member #2,277 Joined: Jun 30, 2010	jfonzi Jan 31 2012, 05:31 PM Well, our nation is based on the fact that you have to work to get your money, from what I understand and have read about socialism is that, its spread the wealth, aka Joe Blow is paid to sweep the floor and gets paid the same amount as the guy that runs around and troubleshoots computers. It is also my personal belief that you should work to get your money. No offense to anyone though, that's just my 2 cents You have no idea how socialism works over here. I was going to post a huge wall of text but decided not to as it was too much of me just rambling about irrelevant stuff but all I want to say really is that a Joe Blow who sweeps the floor doesn't get as much money as the computer nerds.. And I dare say that it's pretty clear that in Finland (and quite a few other countries) people actually have a better chance at "success in life" than in USA where being born in a poor family will hold you down alot more than in Finland for example. If I compare my own life to a friends whose parents are ~3times wealthier than mine I can't really think of any advantages that he has over me as far as being "successful in life" goes on the long term. I don't think I have to even tell you why in USA you're so much better off being born in a rich family. I'm not trying to say that the way over here is perfect or near perfect but In my opinion it's alooooooooooooooooooooooot better & fairer at least than in the US. Edited by Mamonuth, Feb 8 2012, 03:44 PM.



max330	Feb 9 2012, 09:56 PM Post #42
Level 3 Posts: 242 Group: Members Member #2,509 Joined: Aug 8, 2010	SCScanlan Feb 8 2012, 11:03 AM max330 Feb 7 2012, 11:10 PM What sucks about this whole finacial crisis, which started with an unregulated financial sector both in the US and Europe, is that the bail-out was financed by the taxpayer here in the US. Meanwhile, European citzens are being hit with a wave of austerity measures to cope with this whole mess that was not even their fault. Yep, if that money was given to the taxpayers with stipulations that they had to pay their mortgage first, then pay off any credit card debt they had, and THEN put the rest back into the economy through purchases (think more vouchers than REAL cash) then the banks wouldn't have lost their ass, the housing industry would have been strong, and the auto industry could have held tough. The real problem was caused from strong-arming banks into providing low income loans in the first place but that's another discussion. Sorry SC, but nobody forced the banks to do anything. What the banks wanted was to to sale the loans no matter what. All that mattered was the commision reaped from selling the loan. They knew full well what they were doing. Its called fraud.



Soulless	Feb 10 2012, 09:11 AM Post #43
I killed Abeloth. Posts: 450 Group: Members Member #4,243 Joined: Sep 6, 2011	I'm not going to pretend that I know everything that went on with the banks, but with this latest settlement, that is again being paid for by us American taxpayers, I'm a little upset. It was fraud, but I also believe that some form of deregulation made it profitable without any real penalty (meaning that there was a penalty, but that it was such a small one, the gains from several fraudulent loans outweighed the ONE-TIME penalty). It's almost humorous that my mother, who lost her 160k house, will get a 2k payment in the mail. It's also funny that in the settlement, the banks don't actually have any real responsibility to pay anything. That money will be coming from the taxpayer, 401k, etc. Tough choices have to be made and we have to begin somewhere, but I can't understand why those who've done wrong get away with it, while those who haven't had anything at all to do with those wrongs, are made to pay for them. As a parent, if one of my kids needs to be disciplined, I deliver it swiftly and make the punishment fit the "crime" (as it were). I don't walk over to my neighbor's house and start beating the shit out of him. That's what this constant cycle amounts to. No one is responsible for their own actions and some seem to almost flaunt it with a wink and a nod. Examples need to made of these crooks. Painful ones. Edited by Soulless, Feb 10 2012, 09:12 AM.
	Death is certain, life is not. We have taken the noise of gunpowder as our rhythm and the sound of machine guns as our melody.


SCScanlan	Feb 11 2012, 03:00 AM Post #44
Level 5 Posts: 731 Group: Members Member #3,478 Joined: Feb 24, 2011	max330 Feb 9 2012, 09:56 PM Sorry SC, but nobody forced the banks to do anything. What the banks wanted was to to sale the loans no matter what. All that mattered was the commision reaped from selling the loan. They knew full well what they were doing. Its called fraud. Look up the May and Mac stuff, look at the politicians who voted for making them give low income loans to promote home ownership and diversity. Hell it started in the late 70's with the Community Reinvestment Act and snowballed from there. Legislation has been enacted time and time again which created a subprime mortgage environment that was bound to fail.



max330	Feb 11 2012, 11:34 PM Post #45
Level 3 Posts: 242 Group: Members Member #2,509 Joined: Aug 8, 2010	I don't know sh*t about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. (I thought it was a rap group lol) What I do know is that this whole mess started at the top. It was the perogative of the financial firms to promote sub-prime loans. C'mon, I've known since the 3rd grade that you need collateral and proof of income to qualify for a loan. The banking industry (the big banks) knew all of this, but engaged in these practices anyway. Are the borrowers suckers?...you bet. But these firms sold all this junk to investers all over the world which has led to this economic mess.



CarsAndGames	Feb 12 2012, 10:18 AM Post #46
Level 4 Posts: 456 Group: Members Member #4,712 Joined: Jan 28, 2012	my house is a fannie mae house. I love my $400 mortgage



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