"Were you there bro?" // Ken Ham v. Bill Nye debate

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"Were you there bro?" // Ken Ham v. Bill Nye debate
Tweet Topic Started: Feb 5 2014, 04:41 PM (690 Views)
MidiPour	Feb 5 2014, 04:41 PM Post #1
Power of Sardines Posts: 3,000 Group: Founding Members Member #17 Joined: Jan 27, 2009 Currently Playing with Pete's hedgehog! :3	Ken Ham's primary argument: "Were you there bro?" I noticed a few people from the gaming community discussing, hyping this debate up, so why not have it mentioned/discussed here? Also, as per Miti Purr, I leave you with this: Edited by MidiPour, Feb 5 2014, 05:01 PM.



CronoLink9	Feb 5 2014, 05:42 PM Post #2
Keeper of Time Posts: 998 Group: Members Member #3,813 Joined: May 3, 2011	Although I, like Ham, am a religious fellow, I distance myself from him and his claims made about science and even about the Bible, as I think he has a fundamental misunderstanding of the texts he interprets as "literal." Also, I am one of the culprits of this thread existing as I posted on Facebook about this...bows
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MidiPour	Feb 5 2014, 06:13 PM Post #3
Power of Sardines Posts: 3,000 Group: Founding Members Member #17 Joined: Jan 27, 2009 Currently Playing with Pete's hedgehog! :3	Besides you, I also noticed Kharn's activity with it, which he both posted a link and commented on Ken Ham's group page (I have no clue what he said since it was a rather long discussion). Also, other people talked about it, but I'm not sure if they're apart of PGRF, they're not regulars, that's for sure. As a way to open up what hopefully will be an enlightening discussion, I guess I'll discuss my background, which will hopefully spark people's interest to post theirs. My mom is religious and my dad isn't, since there was matriarchy in my household, I was sent to a mosque on Fridays as kid/teen, which would be comparable to Sunday school for Christians. For me, there was this unsettling disconnect when ethical absolutes and cultural customs were brought up, primarily because I was a Muslim living in a Judeo-Christian nation. As time went on, that disconnect kept widening to the point where I ended up questioning the underlying principles to both traditions. I came to to the conclusion we only say certain ethical dilemmas are wrong because of what is socially desirable within an insular group. I don't come from a scientific standpoint, despite having watched popular scientific broadcasting, such as Cosmos and Bill Nye, so I wouldn't be able to critic/defend Evolution, which was the heart of the debate.



SCScanlan	Feb 5 2014, 06:47 PM Post #4
Level 5 Posts: 731 Group: Members Member #3,478 Joined: Feb 24, 2011	I'm a Christian myself, non-denominational, and I had no interest in watching a children's television host debate a fundamentalist if only because both of them are so sure that they're right that nothing will come from it. I love science and am firm in and proud of my faith.



NinjaPenguin8969	Feb 5 2014, 08:09 PM Post #5
I SUCK AT GAMES Posts: 3,048 Group: Members Member #1,200 Joined: Aug 29, 2009 Currently Playing Horizon: Zero Dawn	MidiPour Feb 5 2014, 04:41 PM Ken Ham's primary argument: "Were you there bro?" Or your answer is in the bible. lol. What a waste of time. I never make it all the way through these debates since they always turn out the same way. Anyway on the subject of religion I'm Catholic and went through all the stuff that entails through Confirmation. Can't really say I believe too much of what I learned but it made my folks happy and I get to be my niece's godfather as a result, so that's a plus. I am glad we finally have a sane Pope at least, kudos to him Believe whatever you want, just treat people right no matter their race, religion, gender, sexual preference, etc. Edited by NinjaPenguin8969, Feb 5 2014, 08:27 PM.



RockmanDash12	Feb 5 2014, 10:24 PM Post #6
Anime Fan, Handheld Lover, VN Nut Posts: 1,553 Group: Members Member #5,081 Joined: May 23, 2012	I'm not christian, so half of the biblical references flew over my head.... go Buddhism? Changing the term of science doesn't disapprove anything, and ya sure we weren't here, but that doesn't mean secularists (OR ANY OTHER RELIGION...... -_-) are wrong. There are plenty of non-christian ways to explain things, how do you think the Chinese viewed the world? Are you just saying that their viewpoint is wrong? I believe in big bang etc, and I think he's kinda ignoring the 50% of the world that's not the western civilization and ignoring their explanations. So what if we weren't there? that's why this is a debate, and the arguments that "Were you there bro" is BS.
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Kharnivore2099	Feb 6 2014, 03:35 AM Post #7
Retroverdose Posts: 3,313 Group: Moderator Member #47 Joined: Jan 27, 2009 Currently Playing Dark Souls III Twitter Kharnivore2099	I was surprised i missed everything about it until the debate had finished, but i did watch it afterwards on Youtube...while playing Civilization V. Haha. This may go on for a little bit, but it explains how i feel about Ham and creationist thinking in general and how i feel the "Debate" went. I may go off on one, but some of these people just drive me nuts. I am in no way religious myself, i was made to go to Sunday school, went to church with my grandparents and my aunt played the organ at one of the local churches. My immediate family however were not religious in the slightest as far as I'm aware and none of it ever made any sense to me. Just so you know where I'm coming from, I'm not totally ignorant to the religious side of things but Creationism really takes a bit of willpower to even sit and discuss at the best of times. I knew there would be no real "winner" at the end of the as far the Internet was concerned, reading some of the comments afterwards was honestly quite incredible. I honestly thought Ham had no real answers for a man that seemed so certain that he and his god were right, the Bible cannot in any way be used to prove scientific fact, it is as simple as that. Citing "There is this book..." really doesn't win you any arguments or debates and actually makes you out to look like a bit of a fool at the end of the day. It's usually why most people refuse to debate Creationists, it usually just descends into the utter bizarre and completely irrational mess. I think what annoys me most about Ham, and Creationists in general, is that unless you have a working model, or can you visibly see something in action unfold before your eyes, then they just dismiss it and refer back to the bible. They think the Bible is 100% right until proven wrong, as if the Bible is the default position to take any kind of science from. Essentially this just and example of a "God of the Gaps". I for one am not sure if there was a "Big Bang" that started everything, sounds a little odd to be honest but i get the thought process behind it. We need some kind of working idea to start from and then work on explaining it, we can't just say "God did it!", that just accepts that we have an answer and there is no reason in disproving it. I don't think they quite grasp that we have theories that we educate people on until we find better evidence to either debunk or modify it. There is no defining answer yet, but that doesn't mean some unknown and unseen celestial force created the universe. Ham and the rest of his community seemed to take quite great delight in Nye's "I don't know" answers, almost scoffing at him in the process. I don't think he realises that that is the best answer anyone can give, none of us know how the universe started, that's why we try to find out. We don't just say,"Shit, i dunno? I guess it was God!". Always the Christian God too, it seems. Odd that. Nye isn't really any better himself in a lot of ways. I firmly believe he just took on this debate for some sort of publicity or because he thought he could ridicule Religion in general. He may have had other reasons i guess, but he should have known it was a waste of his time and energy. Though i will say he had some balls going to the Creationist museum to engage in the debate, trying to get your point across in the the land of madness is no small feat.
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CronoLink9	Feb 6 2014, 04:13 AM Post #8
Keeper of Time Posts: 998 Group: Members Member #3,813 Joined: May 3, 2011	So, I guess I'll explain myself a bit more than just saying I'm religious. I'm a devout Christian and have been for most of my life. My dad is a Baptist minister, and I grew up in my local church. I have come to respect all the people that attend it regularly as first mentors, and now as peers and equals in my faith. I actually attended a private Christian elementary-and-high-school where I was taught from very early on to believe in Young Earth Creationism based on a reading of Genesis 1 that essentially reads the six days that God used to create the world as literal, 24-hour days. I held this view for a very long time, through high school, and even into my first year of college. I currently attend a Christian college, and it was here where, through Biblical Studies classes, a core science class, and astronomy, have learned just how wrong YEC really is. Funnily enough, I did have some lingering doubts about the model as a whole, and when it eventually was explained to me up front that "Hey, you know, the Jews that have had the Old Testament for a good few thousand years before any Gentile (non-Jewish) people had it? Yeah, they've read Genesis 1 metaphorically for a loooooong time, because the Bible is not a science book, it's not trying to be one, and they understand that." It didn't shatter my faith, it didn't even really bother me and I frankly cannot fathom why this is such a fundamentally important issue that Ham holds on to so dearly. I don't think that learning YEC was the worst thing that could've happened to me, but I suppose that's just because I finally realized how preposterous it was with the overwhelming amount of scientific data saying otherwise. Still, I guess I can understand that the zealous grip on this model ultimately came from a genuine concern that finds its origins in the Scope trials back a century ago, and I shouldn't dismiss that uncaringly. Honestly, I actually still have some major concerns about the current evolutionary model (though I may just not be very well-versed in how it all works). I just wish more Christians would understand that Genesis 1 is not about the strict timeline of God creating the world, but understand it as a beautiful Hebrew poem with wordplay, homonyms, and such that displays that God created the universe in an orderly fashion. (As a side note, I've minored in Biblical Studies here at school and will likely spend the rest of my life studying it. It's a fascinating book that people often misinterpret, and because I profess faith in the claims this book makes, I find it necessary to engage with it on more than just the superficial level that many people come at it with) So, the TL;DR - I'm a Christian who once believed in YEC before I realized that it stemmed from a gross misunderstanding of the Bible and that the overwhelming amount of scientific evidence for an old universe was not contradictory to my faith. Edited by CronoLink9, Feb 6 2014, 04:16 AM.
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relewis2011	Feb 6 2014, 09:04 AM Post #9
Level 5 Posts: 691 Group: Members Member #3,330 Joined: Jan 22, 2011	CronoLink9 Feb 6 2014, 04:13 AM So, I guess I'll explain myself a bit more than just saying I'm religious. I'm a devout Christian and have been for most of my life. My dad is a Baptist minister, and I grew up in my local church. I have come to respect all the people that attend it regularly as first mentors, and now as peers and equals in my faith. I actually attended a private Christian elementary-and-high-school where I was taught from very early on to believe in Young Earth Creationism based on a reading of Genesis 1 that essentially reads the six days that God used to create the world as literal, 24-hour days. I held this view for a very long time, through high school, and even into my first year of college. I currently attend a Christian college, and it was here where, through Biblical Studies classes, a core science class, and astronomy, have learned just how wrong YEC really is. Funnily enough, I did have some lingering doubts about the model as a whole, and when it eventually was explained to me up front that "Hey, you know, the Jews that have had the Old Testament for a good few thousand years before any Gentile (non-Jewish) people had it? Yeah, they've read Genesis 1 metaphorically for a loooooong time, because the Bible is not a science book, it's not trying to be one, and they understand that." It didn't shatter my faith, it didn't even really bother me and I frankly cannot fathom why this is such a fundamentally important issue that Ham holds on to so dearly. I don't think that learning YEC was the worst thing that could've happened to me, but I suppose that's just because I finally realized how preposterous it was with the overwhelming amount of scientific data saying otherwise. Still, I guess I can understand that the zealous grip on this model ultimately came from a genuine concern that finds its origins in the Scope trials back a century ago, and I shouldn't dismiss that uncaringly. Honestly, I actually still have some major concerns about the current evolutionary model (though I may just not be very well-versed in how it all works). I just wish more Christians would understand that Genesis 1 is not about the strict timeline of God creating the world, but understand it as a beautiful Hebrew poem with wordplay, homonyms, and such that displays that God created the universe in an orderly fashion. (As a side note, I've minored in Biblical Studies here at school and will likely spend the rest of my life studying it. It's a fascinating book that people often misinterpret, and because I profess faith in the claims this book makes, I find it necessary to engage with it on more than just the superficial level that many people come at it with) So, the TL;DR - I'm a Christian who once believed in YEC before I realized that it stemmed from a gross misunderstanding of the Bible and that the overwhelming amount of scientific evidence for an old universe was not contradictory to my faith. My GOODNESS. Thank you, Alex. I'm not one for arguing and getting into debates about my faith. Perhaps I'll go into further depth at some point, but for now, you've basically captured what I would say. Well put, Good Sir.
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relewis2011	Feb 6 2014, 09:35 AM Post #10
Level 5 Posts: 691 Group: Members Member #3,330 Joined: Jan 22, 2011	I already feel the need to elaborate...I haven't watched the debate, nor do I plan to. I certainly don't overlook the importance or significance of these types of discussions, but I think they are just that, DISCUSSIONS. Seeing that there's no clear-cut, 100% 'proof' for either side of things, I things its vital to make the clarification that these things should be discussed, not argued. Arguing really doesn't do either side any good, and more often than not probably only helps solidify beliefs on either side, as opposed to softening to belief of either Creationism or strictly science. I too am a devout Christian, but as such I don't feel it's my job or obligation to 'change' or 'convince' anyone of anything. I most certainly feel obligated to share my belief in God, but again, you'll NEVER find me on a street corner screaming at people to prepare for doomsday, repent, and turn from your wickedness. That's NOT what Christianity is about, and that's definitely not what Jesus was about. In a very broad sense, I don't think I'm out of place by saying that there had to be something before there was something...doesn't sound like that makes any logical sense, but time in and of itself had to be created. It couldn't have simply ALWAYS be there. Again, not something our finite minds will ever be able to wrap our heads around or even begin to conceive. As Chrono was saying, the book of Genesis isn't meant to be taken literally. It's poetic, and as Chrono stated, it "displays that God created the universe in an orderly fashion." I don't have all the answers, nor will I EVER. I certainly don't fret or judge those that choose to not believe what I believe. To be blunt, that's not what faith is about anyway. It's about being "sure of what we hope for, and CERTAIN of what we cannot see." C.S. Lewis paints it in a similar light, saying, "Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important." I know many may roll their eyes at such a statement, but it's true. I understand that people like to have clear-cut evidence, proof, and scientific fact about how things began, evolved, etc, etc. Personally, I think you can spend an entire lifetime in enslavement to trying to figure out all of the 'answers'. That may sound ignorant of me, but I think I'm getting away from my point... At the end of the day, yes, you can refute the words of scripture, the existence of one true God, and all that Creationism points to. However, I don't think you can refute a completely and radically changed life. I'm certainly just as screwed up as anyone, but take it for what it is, my life has also drastically changed since I put my faith in God. If the video below works, it's my personal testimony: My Testimony People will continue to have this 'debate' till the cows come home, and I get that. I just wanted to say my two cents. I'm not here to say "I'm RIGHT you're WRONG", either. I believe what I believe, and I respect the beliefs of others. And again, I think it's healthy and important to have these types of discussions.
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MidiPour	Feb 6 2014, 02:06 PM Post #11
Power of Sardines Posts: 3,000 Group: Founding Members Member #17 Joined: Jan 27, 2009 Currently Playing with Pete's hedgehog! :3	I guess I'll start my argument against organized denominations. Suppose you didn't know anything about yourself or the moral values that were instilled into you by your parents and community. You were given the choice between four beliefs that all denounced one another and claimed to be right, had their own variations of moral absolutes and, most importantly, presented their own compelling argument in favor of their religion, and a libel against the other religions. [by the way, you weren't told anything about the socio-political standpoint of each religion - such as which is popular, fasting growing, in developed counties, etc) Now would you choose: A? B? C? D? (also, when I say organized denominations, I don't mean variations of Christianity - it would include stuff like Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, Skepticism, Alternate Realism, etc) Gonna note: This is a rhetorical question, of course, it can't be answered. I'm primarily conveying that these beliefs are based on tradition and insulation within groups, it's not looking for the truth, rather people being complacent. Which I urge people with and without faith to recollect on what your intrinsic motivation is. Is it truth? Or is the underlying reason a social/nature one? 2nd note: ^Watch entirety. Edited by MidiPour, Feb 6 2014, 02:23 PM.



Michael	Feb 6 2014, 03:00 PM Post #12
Posts: 670 Group: Founding Members Member #57 Joined: Jan 27, 2009	They didn't answer the question that plagues pgrf however If life is so fair, why do roses have thorns? WHY DO ROSES HAVE THORNS!!!!?!?! WHY!
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Vidmusc	Feb 6 2014, 03:03 PM Post #13
Level 4 Posts: 374 Group: Members Member #3,159 Joined: Dec 19, 2010	The way I just look at this whole subject now is... I feel none of us will never truly know. Will we all have our beliefs? Yes, of course. But I don't think any of us will know the truth for sure. And I almost feel it'd be better that way.



MidiPour	Feb 6 2014, 03:23 PM Post #14
Power of Sardines Posts: 3,000 Group: Founding Members Member #17 Joined: Jan 27, 2009 Currently Playing with Pete's hedgehog! :3	Michael Feb 6 2014, 03:00 PM If life is so fair, why do roses have thorns? WHY DO ROSES HAVE THORNS!!!!?!?! WHY! VSigma100 Feb 6 2014, 03:03 PM The way I just look at this whole subject now is... I feel none of us will never truly know. Will we all have our beliefs? Yes, of course. But I don't think any of us will know the truth for sure. And I almost feel it'd be better that way. Why do you almost feel it's better that way?



Kharnivore2099	Feb 6 2014, 05:02 PM Post #15
Retroverdose Posts: 3,313 Group: Moderator Member #47 Joined: Jan 27, 2009 Currently Playing Dark Souls III Twitter Kharnivore2099	Michael Feb 6 2014, 03:00 PM They didn't answer the question that plagues pgrf however If life is so fair, why do roses have thorns? WHY DO ROSES HAVE THORNS!!!!?!?! WHY!
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